When is it time to speak to a professional? | talkBIG podcast | Season 3 Episode 2

Andrew Sykes: 

Hello and welcome back to RSM’s talkbig podcast. My name is Andrew Sykes and I’ll be your host as we talk about how to save, grow and protect your wealth. We have just had the federal Budget and discussed the implications of that from an economic and business perspective, but for today’s episode we’re looking at the wide world of professional services to try to pinpoint when, exactly, it’s time to speak to a professional. 

A lot of times people try a very DIY approach to things, and sometimes that’s appropriate – for example you don’t need an electrician to change your lightbulb but you should definitely hire one if you’re rewiring your kitchen. So today we’re looking at that question from a business and personal finance context, to discover where exactly that line is in various professional and personal scenarios where consulting a professional isn't just advisable, it's imperative.

Whether you're looking to raise capital, understand economic trends, navigate the labyrinth of R&D tax incentives, or even if you're facing the daunting prospect of bankruptcy, we have insights that could steer you in the right direction. We'll also touch on when to get professional support to service your software needs, and in an era where sustainability is key, we'll differentiate between climate adaptation services and ESG, and discuss when each becomes essential.

So, sit back, or lean in, as we embark on a journey to demystify the world of professional services, and help you identify when it's time to call in the experts. Let's get started.

Firstly, I’d like to tackle the obvious question myself. RSM is first and foremost an accounting firm and one of the questions I get asked a lot in my personal life is  When do you need an accountant to help with your tax return?
 

Andrew Sykes: 

When do you need to speak to a professional to help you deal with your taxes? 

Because the reality is that not everyone does. Especially with income tax, which – that’s probably what most people are thinking of but the tax services a firm like RSM provides are actually mostly designed for businesses, not individuals.

For most people, you don’t really need an accountant to help you with your income tax return you can just use the free ATO service and you’ll be fine. But once you get up into more complex structures to manage your wealth, or when you’re running your own business and you’re spending, let’s say more than four hours a week on managing your account books – that’s when it’s probably time to speak to a professional. And they will help you not just with your tax compliance, but they can help you manage your payroll, improve cash flow, help you set up the best business structures and overall, just help you manage your business finances more effectively and set you up for future growth.
 

Andrew Sykes: 

Now, our first expert joining us today is actually going to be talking to us about one of those “next steps” you might consider for a business, which is taking your business public, or “going IPO.” So, I’d like to introduce you to Andrew Clifford, he is one of the Partner’s from RSM’s Melbourne office and a seasoned professional with over two decades of experience in the realm of corporate finance. And one of the key services our corporate finance team provides is with capital markets and IPO support services.

So, Andrew, when do you need to see a professional to “go IPO”?

Andrew Clifford:

Okay, I'll probably start off with just outlining what an IPO is just for people that don't know. So, An IPO is an initial public offering and that occurs when a private company decides to offer shares to the public and then list them and existing shares on a stock exchange such as the Australian Securities Exchange, or the ASX. So, it's a significant step for a company, that comes with complexities.
But going public or going IPO, as we like to call it in the RSM world, does allow for wider investment opportunities, provides capital into a company, and also provides liquidity for existing shareholders. So, it gives them a market to be able to sell their shares.

Andrew Sykes: 

Okay, so in terms of seeking professional support for going public, does timing matter?

Andrew Clifford:
Yeah, timing definitely matters. My view is the earlier, the better. As soon as you were thinking that an IPO or pretty much any exit event, even if it's a sale, an IPO is kind of like a sale. You should seek professional advice. I think the key thing is really early on, you can speak to professionals and get a pre-IPO assessment. So that's looking at the company's readiness because you are really looking to sell the company to the public or to institutions if you're looking for sort of wider investment from pension funds and the like. I like to think of it similar to selling your house. Before you sell your house and put it on the market what you need to do, you need to paint the walls, fix up any cracks, tidy up the garden. So similar to that with an IPO you really want to get your company ready and get some advice about what are the key issues that an investor might look at and sort of what we need to get done so, when we move to the next step of the IPO and preparing the prospectus, there's no surprises down the track. So, some of those key things you might think about, accounting, have you had your accounts audited? You'll generally need three years audits of your accounts before you go and prepare the prospectus and the requirements. And that three years of audit also covers any acquisitions that the company might have made in the previous 12 months. 

So, you might then need to go back and have some audits done. Does the company have corporate governance policies in place? Does it have sufficiently experienced board of directors or does it need some additional directors to meet listed public company requirements? Is the IP owned by the company? Is it securely owned? Have contracts been entered into to make sure it doesn't sit outside the company? Does it have customers and suppliers? The key customers sort of tied in with long-term contracts, is there any key person risk that sort of they have to make sure they mitigate? So, all those factors can get looked at early and sort of professionals, accountants, lawyers, brokers can all sort of input and provide that sort of advice to the company.

That sort of then sets you up for the next step, which is the actual IPO, which again, then has a raft of professional advisors that you'd need. So potentially, you might have a lead advisor, just somebody to hold your hand through the process. You'd then have a lawyer to do the legal due diligence. And also, they generally would lead the whole process of preparing the prospectus and making sure that everything within the prospectus has reasonable grounds to make sure that all directors and members of what's known as a due diligence committee have protection, and have taken reasonable steps when preparing the prospectus. You then need a lead manager, broker, slash an underwriter to go out and find the investors, speak to institutions and try and get the money they're looking to raise. You would need an accountant such as myself to become the investigating accountant, they sign off on the numbers within the prospectus and also do a financial due diligence report on the company. You might then need a prospectus drafting team and some additional directors come on who have sort of ASX-listed experience. So, it's quite a process. There are quite a lot of advisors needed, but getting a good team on board and getting them on board early generally means you'll have a successful outcome.

Andrew Sykes: 

Okay thank you for that Andrew, some great information there. Now as part of your role at RSM and in Corporate Finance, I know you’re also involved in a lot of due diligence and business valuations and that you have some experience in performing valuations in family law matters.

Andrew, can you tell me when you would need to consult with professionals regarding your family’s legal matters?

Andrew Clifford:
The tricky thing with family law, it's very emotive and post-split, there can be a lot of animosities and the business-owning partner can sometimes start to try and play tricks to try to manipulate the results of the business, to try and make it look like it might be worth less than it actually is, or had you valued it pre the split. So, in that case, it's really important getting an independent valuer who's accredited to do a business valuation to come in and have a critical look at both the business value and sort of also casting their eye over the books of the business trying to work out whether there's any trends that might suggest there's been some manipulation by one of the partners and then going through the process of providing a business valuation.

Andrew Sykes: So how does that work?

Andrew Clifford:

So, the way the process works in the family courts in Australia is initially there will be a single expert that will be brought into the picture. And the aim of that single expert is to provide a business valuation that's sort of acting for both parties and the court if the court is involved. And that single expert's got a duty to sort of be independent and provide their best opinion and not be biased towards any of the parties involved. So, it's really having an objective view. Based on the facts, based on what's been provided to come up with their honest opinion of the business value, looking at whatever data is available and comparable transactions they can find and sort of what's normal in the industry that they're looking at.
 

Andrew Sykes: 

Thank you, Andrew. Now obviously it’s not just in times of upheaval or tension that you might need a professional to support you in your personal life. You also have financial advisers who can help you build and protect your wealth. Today I’ve got Rob Zammit with us on the line. Rob is a financial planner from our Perth team who aims to build financial security for his clients so they can enjoy the important things in life. 

So, Rob, what’s your take on this? When do you think someone has reached the point with their finances that they need to go out and speak to a professional?

Robert Zammit:

I find it quite interesting that people go to a doctor to get medical advice, they go to a mechanic to get their car fixed, yet when it comes to finances many people think that they can do it themselves. We all lead busy lives and it takes a lot of time to be able to sift through all the information out there to work out whether their investment is appropriate and a good idea and if it's going to deliver on the promises that it has made to investors.

People should see a financial advisor if they feel that they've got large incomes and surpluses and they don't know what they're doing with their income and need a bit of guidance on which way to direct it if they find that they've got investments that they've collected over the years and they've got reasonable balances and they haven't been reviewed, or if they're starting to plan for retirement and they need to make sure that they're on the right track.

A lot of people see a financial advisor in their later years once they've gotten ahead of paying a large chunk of their mortgage and find that they're getting on top of it and are going to have surplus cash flow. But the problem with financial advice is it can be very expensive and makes it unaffordable for younger generations who may need it the most. And they might need to see a financial advisor to make sure that they've got the right insurances in place to protect themselves and their families in the event that they can't work due to sickness, injury or accident. So, there's a different range of circumstances that people should see a financial advisor. Many financial advisors would be more than willing to have a chat with you and see if they can help. So, pick up the phone, get the email and have a chat to your local advisor to see if they can be of any assistance. They'll point you in the right direction and be open and honest with you if they can add any value to your situation.

Many times, a financial advisor will see a client and it's been years and years that they've been earning a really, really high income and the financial advisor says, well, what have you been doing with all of it? Where is the savings? And too many times we see people, they've spent it, they haven't saved any of it and they're going to have to work longer and harder to continue managing their lifestyle.

People and high-income earners should engage with financial advisors early on to make sure that they are getting ahead in life, to make sure that they are making the most of those years that they are earning a high income. A financial advisor will be able to help you put a plan in place to squirrel away some of that surplus savings instead of maybe spending it every year and to make sure that your mortgages, debts are paid off and you do save money for retirement.
 

Andrew Sykes: Thank you for that, Rob. To your point about it being like a mechanic or doctor, I do think many professional services fit along that vein, where it really is a good idea to be getting regular check-ups. And that’s true whether it’s for yourself or your business.

Next up we have Craig Amos from our Corporate Finance team over in Perth. Craig is well-versed in capital raising and debt advisory – 

So Craig, when is it time to reach out for professional assistance with raising capital – or funds-- for your business – and what kind of help is available?

Craig Amos:
Early-stage businesses, lots of things to do. If you're starting a business, you've got your business plan together, hopefully seen your accountant about your structure and off you go and you know what you're going to do. Invariably with most new businesses, small businesses, you've got to have to have a look at what your funding is going to look like for your first part.

Most new businesses, it's the bank of mum and dad or beg borrow steal for the first seed capital that you're going to need to get you going for the first six months, 12 months. So, you need to have a bit of a think about where that's going to come from. And then depending on how quickly your business is growing and scaling, you may have the need to raise more capital. If you're growing quite rapidly, you might have to actually look at options like bringing in professional investors through a through a sort of what they call in venture capital world series a series b type raisings and raise some equity. If you're getting up and running, and you're making some profit, you might actually have access to debt. But you need to engage a professional advisor to help you understand your funding situation and your sources of funding for the early stage of your business.

That help can typically be advising somebody on what stage they're at and what the typical sources of funding would be. So are they really early stage, in which case debt won't be available to them and they're really having to look at angel investors or venture investors, friends, families, high net worths that are prepared to help them put equity in. So, it's understanding if you're in that category.

Businesses that have been around a little bit longer and have a track record of profits, they start being able to access debt. The early parts of that might be lenders that are happier to lend to slightly more new and innovative companies like private debt funds and all the way up to, you know, when your business is starting to become a little bit mature, traditional bank finance. So, your professional advisor, your financial advisor should be able to help you understand where you are on that life cycle and who you should approach and your prospects.

Andrew Sykes: Thank you, Craig. 

Even though getting loans and managing debt can help you start a business or help you stay afloat, in business (and in life), sometimes things take a turn for the worse. If that happens, you might have to think about insolvency or bankruptcy. 
If you are in that situation, it's important to seek professional advice as soon as possible to prevent the situation from getting worse. So, how do you know when it's time to talk to a bankruptcy adviser? I have one of our restructure and recovery experts here, Andrew Bowcher, joining us from our Wagga office with some signs to look out for. 

Andrew, what are the signs you need to speak to an insolvency or bankruptcy adviser?

Andrew Bowcher:

Bankruptcy is for an individual and it can be an individual who has personal debt or they may trade as their self in their own name with a business or be in a partnership with someone.

So for an example, if an individual is struggling, if you're finding that you're increasing your credit cards, borrowing from payday lenders, having trouble paying those loans off, having trouble putting food on the table, servicing your mortgage, paying everyday expenses, even skipping meals, those type of things, you do need to actually talk to someone. So that's example one.

Andrew Sykes: Okay, so that’s for an individual facing bankruptcy. What about when it’s a business facing insolvency?

Andrew Bowcher: If you have a business, whether it's you trading as a sole trader in a partnership, if you are finding that you're struggling to pay your tax, you've got a large tax bill, you're unable to pay your staff, unable to pay your creditors, those people who are lending you money or providing a product for you to sell in your business, that's when you need to talk to someone.

In these particular examples, what we would do is sit down, work out the total assets, your total liabilities, and then look at how you may be able to service those debts, and then also see what options may exist. And those options can exist. Some of those options may be, yes, going bankrupt, or trying to enter into a formal or an informal arrangement with your creditors.

Andrew Sykes: Right. And are there any common signs or things that happen that can signal that this is occurring?

Andrew Bowcher: There's no particular one thing, but what we find a lot of times can be a relationship and marriage breakdown, can be that there might be a change happening in the industry you may have your business in, interest rate rises, asset values which may have fallen. For an example, is you purchased a property and the property is worth less than what you borrowed it for. We also are seeing where the cost of living. Or even if you have a business, the cost of running that business, for an example, is increasing superannuation for staff, electricity costs, input costs like your suppliers. All those costs are increasing and therefore that's putting pressure on the business and the cash flow or as an individual putting pressure on you to service your individual debts.

Andrew Sykes: So going back to that ‘cost of business’ and it becoming just too high. Thank you, Andrew, and to any of our listeners who may be struggling at the moment, please reach out to your closest RSM office, or your local adviser, whoever that may be. It’s okay to need support, and if we go back to that analogy from Rob earlier, it’s better to go in early for a check-up and get that wheel alignment or whatever you need than to wait for things to get worse and end up losing your whole car. 

Andrew Sykes: Our next guests are experts in all things R&D, as part of RSM’s specialised R&D tax incentive team. I have the lovely Jess Olivier, RSM’s national head of manufacturing, and Dr. Rita Choueiri, who is our national director in life sciences
Now, tax breaks for R&D – or research and development – can be a really great option for businesses to boost some of that cash flow and stay in the black. Now, obviously this is only an option for businesses who are conducting some sort of research.

So, my question is, at what stage in that whole process should businesses be reaching out to an R&D tax specialist?

Jess Olivier:
The R &D claim process is retrospective, but obviously, ideally, you'd be thinking about these types of things proactively and upfront. It's much easier to put in the appropriate governance processes, documentation, et cetera, whilst you're doing the R &D or whilst you're even thinking about the R &D as opposed to thinking about it a year later and collating the information you've prepared and stored today. So, I guess ideally, when you're thinking about investing money in new equipment, new procedures, new manufacturing processes, new products, then document what you're doing and why you're doing it.

Dr Rita Choueiri:
Yes, so I guess a company should reach out to an R &D tax incentive consultant basically as soon as they've got an idea for an R &D activity or an R &D project. Because at that point of time, the R &D consultant can help them document their idea and enable them to understand whether it's going to be eligible or not eligible for the R &D tax incentive because it's very important to keep contemporaneous documentation in place as you're undertaking the R &D activities. An R &D consultant also is basically the conduit between the R &D or the science and engineering and the tax law. So, an R &D consultant can assist a company in a frame its activities in a way that's going to be eligible for the R &D tax incentive.

We might be able to also help steer some of the R &D as well to enable it to be eligible for the R &D tax incentive.

Jess Olivier:
And I suppose from an R &D perspective, it's critical to document the technical risk that you're about to take. Why are you going to develop this new product or process or why are you making improvements to an existing product? What's the uncertainty that you're setting out to overcome through your R &D procedures or your R &D experiments? So, yeah, ideally, it's something you were thinking about in real time and even before the event so that we can help you to appropriately capture and document what you're doing, which makes for a much easier R &D claim process down the track once the deadline's due.

Andrew Sykes: What makes an activity eligible for that R&D claim?

Dr Rita Choueiri:
Yeah, so with the R&D tax incentive, I guess the eligibility criteria for core R &D activity is that it needs to be experimental by nature where the activity is overcoming a technical uncertainty. So there needs to be sufficient technical unknowns with regards to that activity where experimentation is required to overcome it and generating new knowledge. 

A lot of the times companies, especially engineering companies or software companies, you know, they'll be embarking on a project which requires and where they undertake sort of developmental work. But what they don't necessarily understand is how to structure and set up an experiment around those activities.

So, for it to qualify for the R &D tax incentive, it needs to be experimental by nature. So that's where we can sort of come in and help them understand, well, you know, in terms of setting this up as an experiment, if you, you know, manipulate this variable and you measure this variable, you basically, you know, enables you to potentially be eligible for the R &D tax incentive.Andrew Sykes: So, you’re helping with some of the science part of it as well?

Dr Rita Choueiri:
Yeah, so applying the scientific method basically to the work that they're already doing. And sometimes it's those simple tweaks that enables them to be either eligible or ineligible. So sometimes if you're just undertaking a development, it's not necessarily experimental by nature, it's just developing something step by step. So just enabling them to understand that scientific process.

Andrew Sykes: So that’s on the R&D side of things, what sort of assistance do you offer on the business end?

Jess Olivier:
One of the things is to be appropriately structured as a business for the R &D tax incentive.
As an example, trusts typically can't claim or sole traders. So, yeah, again, talking to your advisor upfront about what you're intending to do, whether you've got the relevant structure in place to claim is really important.
We send out grant alerts when new programs are available and then, yeah, making sure that the right people are advising you to help you make a claim and hopefully get some funding, whether it be through tax credits, grants, et cetera. 

Andrew Sykes: So, would you say that's some of the value that an adviser brings is keeping you informed of that side of things, like those opportunities?

Jess Olivier:
Yeah, absolutely. We know your business inside out.

We know our clients inside out, so we'd like to think that across the firm, not only within my team, but the other advisors within RSM know what's available for you, will reach out to us to help you. And certainly, yeah, it's knowing what's there and being prepared. And it's hard to be across everything, as I said, running a staff is a time -consuming business, and it's swept up in the day to day. So, it's very hard to have the time and the energy and the resources to devote to a grant application or to the R &D the claim preparation process.
Just another thing to mention is that for those companies that might be eligible for the R &D Tax Incentive or Government Grant Programmes, there are financiers out there, third party financiers who will look at financing those types of things up front to give you some cash a bit quicker. They might not be the cheapest form of finance but obviously sometimes just waiting for that whole grant application process to be reviewed and paid out or lodging an R &D claim and waiting for that to be processed by the ATO can take some time. So, there are options out there if you're getting desperate.

Andrew Sykes: That’s a great point as well, and speaks to that value that your adviser brings, where we know what the options are, so you don’t need to wait until the last minute or you’re feeling desperate – just reach out. I promise we don’t bite. 
Thank you to Jess and Rita. 
 

Andrew Sykes: And you’ll probably notice a theme from our experts this episode, that it’s better to speak to a professional early than late. And one of the areas where the risk of waiting too long gets very dangerous – for both businesses and for any individuals with significant wealth or assets, is of course cyber security. Joining us today to talk a little bit about that, we have Ashwin Pal. Ashwin is a cyber security expert with extensive experience, currently serving as a Director in our Risk Advisory division here at RSM Australia. He is recognised for his strategic approach to cyber risk management and has been honoured as one of the Global Top 100 Leaders in Information Security. 

So, Ashwin, who needs Cyber security?

Ashwin Pal:

When it comes to cyber security, the issue I guess you have is everybody needs it. So, you've got to look at organisations or the size of the organisation in turn. So, you've got the small organisations and then you've actually got the medium organisations and you've got the very large organisations as well. And trust me, every single one is targeted equally.

And at the moment, the statistics on breaches is actually reported according to size as well. The smaller organisations tend to have lower resources in -house. In fact, a lot of them don't have any resources. So, the best approach for them would be to actually get expert help, get help from cyber security experts who can effectively understand the risk that they're actually exposed to, their vulnerabilities and actually help plug the gap, so to speak. It won't be any different to how a small business would go to and say an accounting firm to actually get accounting and business advisory services. The next tier are obviously the mid -sized organisations who may have one or two professionals internally. Now, with those, what we actually find is a capacity issue for sure. And in some cases, there may be a capability issue as well.

Again, it's important for them to actually understand where those gaps in terms of capacity, as well as capability exists, reach out to outsourced firms to actually try and plug those gaps, so they don't in turn actually have gaps within their environment. And finally, the larger organisations, they will tend to actually have quite large teams internally. And where we tend to engage with them are very specialised skills, which they may actually not have internally.

Or if they actually have multiple projects running where they simply don't have the bandwidth to be able to address those, where we can effectively act as part of their team. So, each organisation will have different needs depending on their size.

Andrew Sykes: So, is it just businesses that need cyber security, or are individuals at risk as well?

Andrew Sykes: Now cyber security is not the only digital service that RSM offers to help businesses and individuals navigate the challenges and opportunities of technology. We have a whole bunch of digital services to help you get the most out of technology or manage your digital transformation. And that's where our next guest comes in. Laurel Grey is the national lead of RSM's digital services team, which among other things helps clients with software evaluation, selection, and implementation. 

So, Laurel, can you tell me when you need professional support with your technology stack and digital services?

Laurel Grey:

It's always a really hard decision to know when to reach out for help around technology, especially since you can go online and Google so many great options and sign up for free trials. The big differentiator of knowing when you should reach out and get support from a business like RSM is dependent on what level of comfort you and your business need.

If you know you've got board reporting or some senior executive stakeholders that need to be bought into the decision making around picking the right software, planning out the right IT roadmap, or actually implementing the right software solution, then a professional services provider can help you step back and make that decision objectively. Basically, by adding evaluation criteria and a really clear concrete process over the top so that you meet the exact requirements of the stakeholders that are going to be signing off on the decision.

We service a range of businesses from sole traders up to large corporates and government agencies as well. So there really is no limit around being too small for using RSM services around technology. It's really dependent on how much time is it going to take for you or your team to do the right research and ensure that you're going to get a great outcome. So even if you're a sole trader or you run a small business with maybe 10 or 20 people. If it's going to take you longer to go back and do the research and get all the validation that you need to make the right decision, then it could be a good opportunity to reach out. And we don't always have to quote on a big project basis. Sometimes just getting an hour with someone in the team to bounce ideas off of and get that level of comfort can be enough.

Andrew Sykes: Thank you, Laurel, for those insights on managing those digital transformations. 

Andrew Sykes: Now let's switch gears and talk about another topic that is becoming increasingly important for businesses of all sizes and sectors: ESG. To answer all our questions about ESG strategy and reporting, we have Linda Romanovska, one of the leaders of our ESG and sustainability services team at RSM Australia. 

So, Linda, can you tell me a bit more about the difference between sustainability services and ESG services? And when you might need to consult with one of these professionals.

Linda Romanovska:

When do we need to talk to an ESG expert versus when do we need to talk to a sustainability expert or perhaps someone more specialized such as adaptation expert? That is a really good question. And a lot of people get really confused around the variety of different terms that are being used in this area. And to ease the understanding and help you understand on what these different terms mean and how they're used today, I will go a little bit in the history of how they emerged. Let's start with the term sustainability.

The term sustainability is not a new term. It really arose in a series of events organized by the United Nations, starting from the very early 80s. In in the early 80s, we had the Brundtland Commission that published a report called Our Common Future in the late 80s. And this is where the conceptual thinking about what sustainable development for the world means and what aspects of that development would need to be in place to ensure that development really is long -term and maintainable in nearer, mid and further future. As a result of that report, also that fed into the Rio conference in the early 90s, which is also where the beginnings of some of the current international agreements on climate change and biodiversity stemmed from.

So, it was the series of events, series of reports that cemented the understanding of what sustainable development is and that was in the development context. And that relied on three pillars. It said that for development to really be sustainable, it has to be financially, economically sustainable. It has to be environmentally sustainable and socially sustainable. And it's in that intersection of these three pillars where the true sustainability lies.

And so that was really applied to a really broad world level, world development level context. And then the question is, how do we translate that into the business context and more local individual entity context? And that's where various terms come into play, such as ESG. So ESG, in essence, is a way to adopt the concept of sustainability to the business concept. And it's also a bit more precise way of describing of what we are focusing on when we talk about sustainability in a private sector context.

Andrew Sykes: Okay, so just for our audience who may not have heard the term, what does ESG mean?

Linda Romanovska:

 So, E stands for environment, S stands for social, and G stands for governance, as these are the main issues that we would be focusing on when we work on sustainability in a company. There are some other terms that have been in play in the recent years and decades, such as corporate social responsibility. Those have somewhat come out of fashion, perhaps because they couldn't be misunderstood as social responsibility did extend also to environment. And now we're a bit more precise in how we name these things. In reality, the terms ESG and sustainability are used interchangeably. So, when you're looking for advice on your sustainability or ESG, these terms do not really matter. Either one will do. And either expert, if they call them ESG expert, they are also a sustainability expert and vice versa. 

Now, when you want something a bit more specialized and you want to work on a specific topic within sustainability or specific topic in the E, S or G, this is where you would want to look for more specialized experts and that's where adaptation expert would come in because that expert would primarily be focusing or helping you to work on adapting to climate change, which means adapting to the climate change risks that you may be experiencing or are dissipating to experience in the future.

Andrew Sykes: Thank you, Linda, for that bit of history and for sharing your insights and expertise with us today. 

So, I hope everyone listening learned a few things about when you do need different professional services. And if you walk away with one lesson learned, I hope that it’s to remember that the earlier the better. Call or email, just talk to an adviser, talk about your situation and take advantage of the knowledge and expertise available. We are, after all, here to help you. 

That's all for this episode of talkBIG, the podcast where we explore the big challenges and opportunities in business and in life to help you save, create and protect your wealth. 

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show on your favourite podcast platform and leave us a rating or a review. You can also visit our website, www.rsm.com.au/talkbig, to find more episodes and articles related to our topics. As always, we'd love to hear from you, so feel free to share your feedback, questions or suggestions with us. Thank you for listening and until next time, stay curious and keep learning.